Noli(te)

QMF

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Did anyone ever wonder what this word was actually derived from? (For anyone not familiar, it's an imperative that takes a complementary infinitive, translated as "Don't..."). Ever since I saw it in my Latin textbook a couple years back I wondered what it was derived from. An irregular imperative of nolle, perhaps? But if that's true, then why isn't there a fancy imperative usage that is derived from velle? And how would the pre-nolle (as nolle is a relatively later word) Latin speakers go about saying "Don't..."?
Thoughts?
 

Cato

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I'd always thought nolo = non + volo, one big clue being that the 2nd person indicative of nolo does not exist (the Romans used non vis/vultis; yes Plautus has nevis, but it pretty much dies with him).

As QmF[/ib] notes, the existence of the imperative form noli/nolite - "you don't want" seems to imply imperative forms of volo and malo (=magis volo), but these are not found. I can only speculate, but when I look for the potential uses of an imperative like voli - "wish/want!", I just don't see as many as I do with noli, which has a handy purpose in delivering negative commands. But that may be just a bias from seeing noli so frequently...
 

QMF

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That's what I was saying with it being a later word. It's really sort of like don't=do not. People say "do not" for a long time and then someone mispeaks and says "don't" and it becomes the norm. And really, there is sort of a reason to say that. It's in between a jussive subjunctive and an imperative in its usage. If it were voli, it would be the difference between (I just picked a verb):
lacrimes.
voli lacrimare!
lacrima!
Also, does velle/malle (it is malle, not magis velle, correct?) even have an imperative?
 

Cato

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I have never seen the imperative forms voli/mali, even in Medieval texts.

I'm thinking the imperatives of these verbs were just not useful, so if they ever were formed they didn't last. For example, voli lacrimare isn't that much different from one or the other example you gave, and if there was a need to emphasize that someone should wish to cry, there's always the subjunctive velis lacrimare.

I suppose a similar argument could be made for noli (e.g. why not just say non lacrima! rather than noli lacrimare), so I really don't have a great explanation. Perhaps in more complicated imperatives--e.g. ones that take objects, like the biblical noli me tangere--the non didn't have enough force to negate the entire thought, i.e. non me tanga! could be confused as "don't touch me (but feel free to touch him)."
 

QMF

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It would be tange :)
I'd get into the political translation of "noli me tangere" from μη μου πτου (Sorry about the lack of accents) but that's another topic.
It really does create a conundrum.
Maybe...just maybe...there's a REALLY old (archaic) verb nolire, and this is its remnant. Sort of like fore, which probably had its own conjugation in archaic Latin.
 

Marius Magnus

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quemquem me facis dixit:
Maybe...just maybe...there's a REALLY old (archaic) verb nolire, and this is its remnant. Sort of like fore, which probably had its own conjugation in archaic Latin.
I doubt it. The relation between "nolle" and "velle" is pretty obvious. The infinitive "velle" itself is probably very old, formed from the direct assimilation of "vel-" plus infinitive ending "-re", without an intervening vowel. Or it could have begun as "velire"; note that in proto-Latin it is theorized that all words were stressed on the first syllable, and so the i could have easily disappeared, giving "velre" and finally "velle". These things happen with words that are frequently used.

In Spanish, second person familiar positive imperatives retain the old Latin form. For the verb "amar" (Lat. "amare")

sg. "Ama!" and pl. "Amad!" (from lenition of -te in "amate")

In the plural, the stress still shifts to the syllable before the -d, even though the final -e is lost. Accents mark unusual stress in Spanish, but they aren't necessary here, as words that end in any consonant other than -n and -s are assumed to be stressed on the final syllable by default.

For negative commands, however, the combination "no" + subjunctive is used:

sg. "No ames!" and pl. "No améis!"

"Velle" is lost in Spanish, and consequently also "nolle". But there is still this sense that negative commands must take a different form from positive ones.

Is there any evidence of using "non" + subjuncive in Latin? Perhaps this is what they did pre-nolle.


And on a bit of a tangent, the "vis" from the second person singular of "velle" actually comes from an entirely different root (or else it would be something like "volis"). The roots for "volo" and "vis" are the same as the roots of English "will" and "wish", respectively.
 
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Marius Magnus dixit:
Is there any evidence of using "non" + subjuncive in Latin? Perhaps this is what they did pre-nolle.
I don't think I've ever encountered "non" + subjunctive, though the use of "ne" + subjunctive as a negative command is seen in the Vulgata. ("Ne timeas.")

I did see, however, the use of "non" + imperative in some late 13th century legal papers that I had to translate once. To be sure, they were hardly the most impeccable source for Latin grammar...
 

QMF

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Ne timeas and similar constructions are really just Latin translators trying to properly reflect the normal NT Greek negative "imperative", i.e. μη with the aorist subjunctive, at least in general. The normal construction in Latin is in fact noli(te)+inf.
 
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Thanks! That's interesting to know. I do know that the ne+subjunctive is encountered fairly often in some more modern ecclesiatical manuals as a sort-of "gentle negative imperative."
And I know it seems to be used in the "Sub tuum praesidium," but I've not encountered the Greek form, but I'd be inclined to think the parallel held up.
In any event, my Greek is almost non-existent, sadly.
My Greek professor would be turning over in his grave! If he was dead, that is.
 

Imber Ranae

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Marius Magnus dixit:
Is there any evidence of using "non" + subjuncive in Latin? Perhaps this is what they did pre-nolle.
Non is used with the potential subjunctive as well as combined with ut to form the negative of result clauses. I doubt non was ever used for negating the imperative, however. But ne with the imperative is in fact attested in Classical Latin literature, mirroring the Greek μή + imperative construction. This was likely the original negative imperative in Latin, although it seems to have largely fallen out of favor by the Classical period, being eventually replaced by the more idiomatic noli + infinitive construction and the polite 2nd person hortatory subjunctive with ne. It's interesting to note that Greek has a peculiar rule that the direct negative imperative construction is preferred in the present tense, but in the aorist the less direct negative hortatory subjunctive is preferred. (Yes, Greek has more than one tense for the imperative.)

It's important to understand that the earliest particle of negation in Latin was actually ne. Non itself developed much later. Because of this the earliest lexically negated words to develop in Latin were formed by the simple prefixing of this particle. For example, nemo is a contraction of the original nehomo*, i.e.'no man'. It also holds true for such ubiquitous words as nullus (ne+ullus), neuter (ne+uter), nescio (ne+scio), and even nolo (ne=volo). In fact non itself originally was such a word, having the archaic form noenum, a contraction of ne and oenum (an older form of unum). Also attesting to this is the fact that the negative conjunctions nec/neque (obviously ne+que) and neve/neu (ne+ve) are almost always used in indicative sentences where one would not expect ne. Likewise with the ossified phrase 'ne...quidem'. This same sort of thing also happened in Greek, with οὑ/οὑκ usurping the original domain of the negative particle μή (cognate with Latin ne), leaving it to govern only the irrealis moods.

Furthermore, the interrogative enclitic -ne is descended from ne as well, indicating that negation could originally be used to express an interrogative undertone in Latin. This isn't surprising, and in fact Greek often uses μή alone as an interrogative particle. Since ne was not stressed when used interrogatively, however, it soon underwent vowel-shortening and lost its accent, becoming an enclitic, which alters the normal accent of the word it's appended to. This kind of process, whereby two very syntactically dissimilar words are produced from a single source word through differentiation of stress, is in fact not so uncommon. In English, for example, both the words 'of' and 'off' are derived from the same preposition in Old English.


PS:Sorry to raise such a long-dead thread from out of the realm of shades, but the discussion caught my interest and it didn't seem like it would do too much harm to reanimate it.
 

Imber Ranae

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[mispost]
 

Imber Ranae

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Cato dixit:
I'd always thought nolo = non + volo, one big clue being that the 2nd person indicative of nolo does not exist (the Romans used non vis/vultis; yes Plautus has nevis, but it pretty much dies with him).
I disagree. You'll notice that the non arises only from the contracted forms of volo (2nd & 3rd person singular, 2nd person plural), but otherwise the assimilation is normal. This is a big clue. I believe nolo was negated in the same way most Latin words were originally negated, by prefixing the particle 'ne'. This likely also happened long before any contraction had occurred within the word volo itself. Thus we would have:

nē + volō = nōlō
nē + volis = nōlis
nē +volit = nōlit
nē +volumus = nōlumus
nē +volitis = nōlitis
nē +volunt = nōlunt

Pretty straightforward so far. Now both verbs are still totally regular (the 1st person plural ending -umus was probably a regular 3rd declension ending at the time), and because of the assimilation of 'ne' with the first syllable of volo, the short 'o' in nolo gets lengthened. However, later on the short 'o' of volo becomes so weak in pronunciation that certain forms of the verb are contracted when spoken quickly. Thus we get:

volō = volō
volis > vīs
volit > vult
volumus = volumus
volitis > vultis
volunt = volunt

The forms of nolo, however, since they have a long 'o' in the first syllable, would not likely undergo any contraction at all. But at this point the forms nolis, nolit, and nolitis no longer seem to match their antonyms, so the Roman speaker would likely feel it was better to adopt the contracted forms of volo to be used for nolo as well, for consistency's sake. This is a linguistic process called analogy. But since nis, nult, and nultis were really no better, and since 'ne' was no longer productive as a negating prefix (except with Plautus, apparently, per your example), it was probably thought better to simply negate these forms in the regular way most verbs are negated, i.e. by simply adding non. So finally we have:

nōlō = nōlō
nōlis > nōn vīs
nōlit > nōn vult
nōlumus = nōlumus
nōlitis > nōn vultis
nōlunt = nōlunt

That's my theory, anyway. I just don't see how non, with its long vowel, could so cleanly contract into such short forms as nolo or nolumus. I also can't think of any other situation in which non ever contracts with another word in Latin. And while the contracted word malo (magis + volo) could possibly be used as evidence that such a contraction can occur with non, that word seems to me to actually be based on analogy with nolo itself.
 

Cato

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Imber Ranae dixit:
I disagree. You'll notice that the non arises only from the contracted forms of volo (2nd & 3rd person singular, 2nd person plural), but otherwise the assimilation is normal. This is a big clue. I believe nolo was negated in the same way most Latin words were originally negated, by prefixing the particle 'ne'. This likely also happened long before any contraction had occurred within the word volo itself.
I agree with this analysis; it certainly explains both the lengthening of the first o and the nevis citation from Plautus.

THe lynchpin of the theory is that later contraction of vis, vult, and vultis made corresponding forms of nolo that were formed from ne + volo "too different" for common use. Even so, one would still expect to find a few citations using forms like nolis, nolit, and nolitis. A little digging has found (according to my OLD) at least one example of nolitis from Caecilius Statius, an old Latin playwright who survives only in fragments. So I'd say it's confirmed.

Ne is certainly the older form of negation. Regarding non, it is worth noting there is an ancient form of "not" found in Plautus and Lucretius: noenum. This looks like it's derived from the contraction ne + unum. Non probably evolved out of this form.
 
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